Curse

Kunder · Feb 12, 2011, 05:38 PM // 17:38

AoHM converting damage to holy is something I'm on the fence about. OoP isn't that great (SoH/GDW/SW are better, much better, and ridiculously better respectively), and Dark Fury is already loloverpowered for SY spamming when combined with multi-hit attacks (and with the new adrenal skills it will be even more overpowered). If what we want to do is make every physical character run scythes because scythes are always better then change it, but if we want to add is distinction between weapons and different playstyles/synergies between classes then I would leave in the holy damage.

RedDog91 · Feb 12, 2011, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Well, the Rune Trader is happy about the up-coming update.
He's been selling out of every dervish rune in existence. Its a good day to be an NPC

Kotetsu Rain · Feb 12, 2011, 06:29 PM // 18:29

WAAAAAAAAA? It's coming, FINALLY! New Lyssa's haste is awesome! Wow.. just wow. *goes off to re-install Guild Wars*

Kaleban · Feb 12, 2011, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Sure thing. That means it's fine as it is, since it only gives benefits to scythe-wielding characters.

Scythe Mastery is an attribute available to secondaries as well. That's enough for me to justify its current funcionality without restrictions. Anyone can wield a Scythe, and I don't see a single reason in the World for secondaries not to be able to gain full advantages out of a PvE-only skill, just because the Primary is currently inadequate.

Make the Dervish a decent class at last, and leave other classes alone, thanks.

The reason AoHM is not satisfactory and the whole reason for debate is essentially that anyone can use it. Following your logic, everyone should also be able to make use of "There's Nothing to Fear!" and Critical Agility without need of the primary attribute. Obviously, ANet disagrees with your logic, and probably AoHM kind of slipped through the cracks, as many Dervish issues did, as evidenced by the massiveness of the update.

Anyone can also wield Daggers, and Spears, and make use of those weapon skills, but the buffs like CA and TNTF are linked to the primary attribute for a reason, because they are game changingly powerful. If any class could make use of CA or TNTF, the primary profession would lose focus and emphasis, EXACTLY as has happened to the Dervish.

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A "build devoted to it": an Assassin needs half his/her bar devoted to crit-buffing skills, and one more PvE-only skill (CA) as an IAS. A Warrior has his/her elite slot locked for the e-management necessary to run a Scythe Build. Sounds like prime cases of "devoted builds". Both classes tough have an impressive set of options available to them, and hardly need a Scythe to be effective damage dealers, which is not the case with Dervishes as they are.

MOST Sin builds that aren' prema farmers utilize CA because it is so good and synergizes so well with their primary. The Sin build isn't devoted to making CA work, CA makes Sin builds overall more powerful because of the lack of need to off spec for IAS. The fact that it auto-renews off the primary's main focus is just gravy. And Warrior's Endurance is an awesome elite for many builds, not just scythe, Axe builds say hello.

The point of contention is that War/Sin are better with the scythe than the Dervish, in large part to the only viable DPS build for Dervs is ZV/skill spam, and that all their skills are non-dependent on the primary attribute. I guarantee that if CA was put in Shadow Arts, a LOT more professions would use it, such as GFTE! Paras for example. The Dervish with the proposed changes may close the gap, but AoHM NEEDS changing otherwise the damage output difference in high end PvE will not close the gap and Dervishes will still be relegated to a tertiary role.

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The problem with Dervishes is they currently suck at being a melee class, it's not just the Scythe. As long as the imminent update can address certain issues regarding Dervish Primaries, I hope they turn out worth playing with a Scythe simply because they are finally good at it, and because they have something special and unique, even when compared to Assassins and Warriors wielding a Scythe. They must be good at being Dervishes, and they need to regardless of the competition. Nerfing other classes only serves the purpose of stripping people of their freedom of choice, and won't help the Dervish in any way.

How is changing AoHM a nerf to other classes? Its designed for scythe use, and Dervs use Scythes as their primary weapon. Are you saying that CA should be changed to only allow Daggers? Its the same concept your logic is putting forth. War and Sin as you said yourself have a variety of builds, the loss of one or two scythe gimmick builds will not hurt them, and will definitely help the Dervish.

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You forgot Necrosis, Cry of Pain, Summon Spirits and many more. Check again.

All of which are generally unused by ANY profession that doesn't also use a variety of skills from the same secondary. How many secondary Rits use Summon Spirits without any spirit skills? I would challenge you to design an effective build using a secondary's exclusive PvE skill as the ONLY skill from that secondary OTHER than x/w with SY!

I doubt there will be many D/N running Necrosis with a bunch of scythe attacks, or E/Me only using Cry of Pain as their sole Mesmer skill.

NerfHerder · Feb 12, 2011, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Like I have said for a long time, AoHM should be tied to Mysticism. That alone would pretty much make the Dervish best with the Scythe and give incentive to put points into his primary attribute. I'm kinda on the fence about the Holy damage conversion myself. I use SoH, SW, and sometimes JI, so it wouldnt bother me. But, it would be nice to have more control of what type of damage I do.

If nothing is done to AoHM, it wont matter how they change the scythe. Sins will still be the superior scythe user.

Really all I wanted from the Dervish update was a functionality change to AoHM and a decent/reliable IAS. If we get that, the rest is gravy.

I'm also assuming Avatar of Balthazar will give 1 extra adrenaline judging by the preview examples. If scythes can still hit three adjacent foes, that should be very fun skill indeed. Even with the adrenaline from AoB I doubt "SY!" Wars and Sins will be replaced. "SY!" doesnt stack but if you use both luxon and kurzick versions, they can be used to cover each other and overlap for the rest of the party.

EDIT: I agree with the previous post, tieing AoHM to Mysticism is not a nerf to other professions. Even w/o AoHM, a scythe sin can deal as much damage as a Dervish with AoHM. Even if you take the scythe builds away from Sins and Wars, its not like they dont have a plethora of viable options to fall back on.

reaper with no name · Feb 12, 2011, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yojimaru

I did a little number crunching using an Enduring Scythe build, 14 strength, customized zealous scythe with 15^50. While I did do more total damage on average with AoHM in 10 repetitions against the Master of Damage (788.2 damage in 8.5 second vs 768.9 damage in 7.7 second) I managed more DPS without AoHM (102.2 DPS vs 94.5 dps). But by all means, feel free to tie AoHM to Mysticism if you think that'll make dervishes better with scythes, I've certainly never noticed it making much of a difference in actual usage outside of fighting undead.

This is why MoD tests are meaningless. They are plagued by inaccuracies such as the MoD's low armor and level, as well as the randomness of the RNG.

If you're not using AoHM, then you shouldn't be using the scythe in the first place. There are better options, such as daggers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

90% of derv skills are getting changed. If we assume a monkeys+dartboard approach, the odds of any one skill not bring changed are 1/10. The odds of the three skills vital to ZV builds not getting changed is 1/1000. The build is not surviving unless someone made a conscious choice to preserve it.

At best, I'd anticipate ZV may stay untouched and we might have to fiddle with different attack skills.

It's a 4 and a 7. Warriors spam costlier stuff all the time, with SY! mixed in.

You're right. The more I think about it, if these teardown thingies are going to be relevant, we're going to need to be able to pop one off once every 1-2 seconds. So that means a couple of them with 2 sec recharges (can't reasonably dedicate any more bar space than that) and a 1sec blackout. Oy. Don't think a-net has anything near that fast of a cycle in mind. The whole mechanic may be doomed to worthlessness...

What makes you think half of those changes aren't "This skill becomes a flash enchantment"?

At best, the only thing the new AoB will allow is for DS-type builds that hit multiple targets. And that's only if the recharge issue is dealt with.

There was one skill in the leaks that may allow us to get around the issue of recharge times and disabling of flash enchantments. It depends on how exactly it will work, however. But it's probably the only hope for flash enchantments as a viable method of damage production (not necessarily the only hope for flash enchantments as a viable mechanic, however).

Kunder · Feb 12, 2011, 07:42 PM // 19:42

AoHM being tied straight to mysticism like Critical Agility is wouldn't nerf non-derv scythe users, it would make them completely useless. I would rather see something added to AoHM along the lines of : "Whenever you activate a flash enchantment you deal 5 damage per point of mysticism to all nearby foes" that doesn't completely make scythes useless for everyone else but still gives the Derv a firm advantage over other classes while using it. 5 damage per point is of course pulled completely out of my ass, it depends on how spammable flash enchantments turn out to be when the update comes.

Yojimaru · Feb 12, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If you're not using AoHM, then you shouldn't be using the scythe in the first place. There are better options, such as daggers.

Oh yes, heaven forbid that people use something for reasons other than damage, like.. I don't know, aesthetics perhaps?

mage767 · Feb 12, 2011, 07:47 PM // 19:47

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Originally Posted by Rites

just plain dumb

(a) intimidating aura - at least fear was to be the idea behind this skill
(b) avatar of grenth if i remember correctly gives you life steal
(c) end of enchants = energy return, there are also attacks that give energy back

looks to me like your so-called fixes are already normal derv skills, apparently you are making comments on a class you know nothing about

personally i still say to stop all the QQ about other classes using X weapon better than the class they were made for, we should be stuck to only using weapons from our primaries... but that will break GW even more, even tho it would bring better balance

Funny shit. Here is my feedback:

1. Intimidating aura is a crappy skill in HM. Most enemies have much higher HP than you, so it barely triggers. GG indeed. Please play the skills before you talk.

2. Did you even read "Avatar of Grenth" description? I guess not. Ok, go do it now, please...it gives life steal per attack hit successfully, and not on kill. Therfore, the skill I suggested is a WEAKER version of the elite. In case you haven't noticed...this has already been implemented in the Norn Brawl. So, GG again. Please play GW fully.

3. Currently, Mysticism does return energy on enchants ending. However, a dervish who prefers to not bring enchants (for reasons such as easy stripping by foes, waste of skill slot) and bring non-enchant based skills DOES NOT benefit much from Mysticism. Therefore, for all the other reasons suggested in this thread, Mysticism must work both ways - for dervish who uses enchants and for those who want to not use enchants. Hence, my suggestion to add a skill which reaps energy on critical hits is similar to how sins primary work, except that the skill I'm suggesting will probably need to be a stance such that it cannot be stripped, and will trigger only on criticals (hence conditional), which we know for a dervish occurs at a lower frequency than a sin. It should still help a lot with energy management WITHOUT having to bring enchants. Also, please no Zealout Renewal ...it sucks and is an easily stripplable enchant...which interferes with dervish attack skills.

The dervish class should offer balances: 1) Pure enchant builds, 2) Pure stance/melee builds, 3) Mix (such that melee builds don't strip enchants like ZR easily unless ofcourse it is strategic).

Apok · Feb 12, 2011, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I'm glad they are at least balancing flash enchantments with "disables other flashes" clause. Reminds me of playing Sona on LoL, and god I had fun playing that champ.

The combination of lightning-quick enchantment juggling and plausible end effects through attack skills should make this class more fluid and versatile within its own skill-trees. Also, the insta-cast enchantments and controllable durations of these enchantments should make it more viable to run against certain spirit-abusing teams in a certain arena...

Kaleban · Feb 12, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

AoHM being tied straight to mysticism like Critical Agility is wouldn't nerf non-derv scythe users, it would make them completely useless.

So what you're saying is, you don't want the Derv's skill to be exclusive to the class? As it is with CA and TNTF?

So basically you're against the Derv EVER being better with its signature weapon than other melee capable professions?

Look, the point is, to make the Dervish more attractive, you have to make it stand out. Many of the changes are doing that. But bottom line for PvE anyway, is DAMAGE. If, after all the changes, Sins and Wars are STILL better with the scythe because ANet did nothing to AoHM, then Dervs still won't be viable or desired. Which defeats the whole purpose in the first place.

Like I said on the last page, make AoHM just like Critical Agility, its only fair and fits the skill conventions. Make it self-renew when hitting multiple foes. This doesn't keep Sins and Wars or ANY class from using scythes, it simply makes Dervs better, as it SHOULD be.

In addition, have most if not all Flash chants add a small aggregate damage bonus to scythes that fail with less than 4 Mysticism, which would encourage bringing along more than one or two, and make the Dervish player think tactically about when its best to strip them.

WarcryOfTruth · Feb 12, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Look, the point is, to make the Dervish more attractive, you have to make it stand out. Many of the changes are doing that. But bottom line for PvE anyway, is DAMAGE. If, after all the changes, Sins and Wars are STILL better with the scythe because ANet did nothing to AoHM, then Dervs still won't be viable or desired. Which defeats the whole purpose in the first place.

If the bottom line for PvE is DAMAGE, why do parties take healers? Why not just roll 8 high damage bars and win?

Kaleban · Feb 12, 2011, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

If the bottom line for PvE is DAMAGE, why do parties take healers? Why not just roll 8 high damage bars and win?

Here I thought it was completely obvious that since we're talking about the Dervish update and its relation to the Sin and War, and occasionally Ranger, that the DAMAGE aspect of PvE was what was under discussion...

WarcryOfTruth · Feb 12, 2011, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Here I thought it was completely obvious that since we're talking about the Dervish update and its relation to the Sin and War, and occasionally Ranger, that the DAMAGE aspect of PvE was what was under discussion...

Well I don't play my Dervish to cause damage, I enchantment juggle and play more of a front line support role, with some damage of course.

Verene · Feb 12, 2011, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

AoHM being tied straight to mysticism like Critical Agility is wouldn't nerf non-derv scythe users, it would make them completely useless.

It is perfectly possible to play a non-Derv scythe user without relying on AoHM. It wouldn't make them useless at all; it just would make the Dervish superior with their own weapon, as they should be.

Kunder · Feb 12, 2011, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So what you're saying is, you don't want the Derv's skill to be exclusive to the class? As it is with CA and TNTF?

So basically you're against the Derv EVER being better with its signature weapon than other melee capable professions?

Look, the point is, to make the Dervish more attractive, you have to make it stand out. Many of the changes are doing that. But bottom line for PvE anyway, is DAMAGE. If, after all the changes, Sins and Wars are STILL better with the scythe because ANet did nothing to AoHM, then Dervs still won't be viable or desired. Which defeats the whole purpose in the first place.

Like I said on the last page, make AoHM just like Critical Agility, its only fair and fits the skill conventions. Make it self-renew when hitting multiple foes. This doesn't keep Sins and Wars or ANY class from using scythes, it simply makes Dervs better, as it SHOULD be.

In addition, have most if not all Flash chants add a small aggregate damage bonus to scythes that fail with less than 4 Mysticism, which would encourage bringing along more than one or two, and make the Dervish player think tactically about when its best to strip them.

Did you even read what I said? The next sentence after what you quoted was a huge buff to dervs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

It is perfectly possible to play a non-Derv scythe user without relying on AoHM. It wouldn't make them useless at all; it just would make the Dervish superior with their own weapon, as they should be.

About as useless as a flare spamming ele. They would lose nearly half of their damage output. I challenge you to find any damage build in guild wars that would still be good at half its strength.

Chthon · Feb 12, 2011, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

AoHM converting damage to holy is something I'm on the fence about. OoP isn't that great (SoH/GDW/SW are better, much better, and ridiculously better respectively), and Dark Fury is already loloverpowered for SY spamming when combined with multi-hit attacks (and with the new adrenal skills it will be even more overpowered). If what we want to do is make every physical character run scythes because scythes are always better then change it, but if we want to add is distinction between weapons and different playstyles/synergies between classes then I would leave in the holy damage.

1. OoP should be used in addition to SoH/GDW.
2. OoP can be multiplied by AScan, VoS, BUH.
3. You're neglecting the curse line, most notably MoP. Forcing dervs to choose between participating in the strongest intrateam synergy in the game or bringing the only skill that gives them decent standalone damage really gimps the class. You're also missing out on barbs and well of ruin, but that's around OoP level.
4. Just on general principles, making an offensive class whose best builds are simply incompatible with your support class's best builds is just bad design. It discourages teamwork and team-level planning for builds.

Reformed · Feb 12, 2011, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

If, after all the changes, Sins and Wars are STILL better with the scythe because ANet did nothing to AoHM, then Dervs still won't be viable or desired.

Dervs aren't desired because they offer nothing unique and useful to the group, not because they kill monsters with a scythe slower. The damage argument is and has always been a huge pile of crap. This update appears to be trying to remedy the issue of being a unique profession which is a good thing and will do more for them than just bigger yellow numbers.

My guild actually runs melee heavy frontlines on a regular basis and uses Dervishes when people feel like playing them. Dagger sins, not the various scythe options, are still favored because of consistency, speed of buff delivery to target and optionals flexibility.

Kunder · Feb 12, 2011, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. OoP should be used in addition to SoH/GDW.

At this point you are getting into the negligible returns zone. +20 damage per hit means a lot when your base damage is 20. +20 damage hit means a lot less when your base damage is already 150. In the first instance you kill things 2x faster, in the next you kill things 15% faster. Given the time melee spends running around getting into position to hit things, and the amount of overkill you do, the total advantage is significantly less than that (estimate it at 5-10% or so).

Again, keep in mind the already insane synergy between dark fury and scythes. Its as easy to keep up SY as a derv + dark fury as it is with an Imbagon. You can't say "all weapons should benefit equally from x" when y in the exact same build benefits scythes 2-3x as much

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. OoP can be multiplied by AScan, VoS, BUH.

True, but VoS is a bad skill, AScan is unusable for dervs due to energy requirements, and BUH really isn't an amazingly good skill synergy-wise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. You're neglecting the curse line, most notably MoP. Forcing dervs to choose between participating in the strongest intrateam synergy in the game or bringing the only skill that gives them decent standalone damage really gimps the class. You're also missing out on barbs and well of ruin, but that's around OoP level.

First off, MoP is a ridiculously stupid skill that should have been changed long ago to something like a reverse-sliver armor. All it does is encourage the most degenerate of tank-n-spank while not benefiting other builds much.

If you are running MoP, you are running splinter weapon because lolshitdies. Splinter weapon already has inherent synergy with scythes that other melee weapons need PvE skills to replicate. So you lose 1 physical hit out of 3. Big deal, the mob still blows up instantly.

Barbs is a pretty meh skill for anything other than 10k HP bosses, otherwise it won't mean much. Well of ruin is pretty bad since you can't control where it goes (and if you have any other source of physical in the group it doesn't matter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

4. Just on general principles, making an offensive class whose best builds are simply incompatible with your support class's best builds is just bad design. It discourages teamwork and team-level planning for builds.

Its incompatible with 1 decent skill (with 3x compatibility with another skill on the same bar) along with being mildly incompatible with 1 good skill on another bar. Meanwhile it has full compatibility with another 2 or 3 buff bars that are usually as good or better then the ones mentioned prior.

If you want to complain about builds not being compatible with buffs, complain about EVERY CASTER IN THE GAME. The amount you can buff any physical character is ridiculous, and if AoHM could be buffed even further I don't think anyone would run anything else. We need more buff-incompatible builds, not less. Hell, a cap on buff stacking at +20 per hit, the same way everything else is capped, wouldn't be a bad idea. I would rather every class in the game have a very uniquely powerful build that is prevented by crafty tricks suck as this from becoming too powerful than every class being completely interchangeable cogs within the same build which ends up being buffed by all the same stuff.

Kaleban · Feb 12, 2011, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Did you even read what I said? The next sentence after what you quoted was a huge buff to dervs.

Yes I read it.

And what would stop other classes abusing flash enchants and also reaping the benefits as you posted?

Unless ANet were to add a "requires Mysticism of at least 4" for nearly EVERY skill the Dervish possesses, by adding to damage to skills as you posted would further exacerbate the problem of other classes using the Dervish weapon AND skills better.

Not to mention that I've been talking about adding a bit of weapon enchant damage to the flash chants for a while now, either to replace AoHM or in addition to it. This tertiary effect could require the Mysticism of 4, but the enchant itself would not, sort of an "extra" for Dervish primaries.

Bottom line is, unless ANet adjusts the way AoHM works or the Scythe itself to coincide with the Dervish primary attribute, then any other melee build will also be able to utilize the same advantages, and in some cases STILL with superior energy management and damage output.

IMHO the simplest solution is to follow the same logic as CA and TNTF so that AoHM becomes glued to melee Dervs' bars just like CA does for melee Sins. I'm just saying that the 4+1/2 mechanic is a good one and should be applied to AoHM, with auto-renewal on multiple foes hit on an attack, WHICH follows exactly the Dervish's MO.

That change alone would make Derv's much more desirable across the board, NOT just in congenial guilds with hearts of gold lol. When it comes to melee, damage output wins, kill the other guy before he kills you, and of the Derv has no way to compete and indeed, other professions do it better, then in the game AT LARGE the Derv will be continued to be undervalued and excluded.